Preamble

[Mr. Speaker in the Chair]

NEW WRIT

For the County of Midlothian and Peebles (Northern Division), in the room of Colonel the right honourable David John Colville, T.D. (Chiltern Hundreds).—[Mr. A. Young.]

Oral Answers to Questions — NATIONAL WAR EFFORT

Prosecutions

Mr. Rhys Davies: asked the Minister of Labour whether he will state, up to the last available date, the number of male and female workers, respectively, prosecuted by his Department for offences against the several laws and Regulations in force; how many of those have been imprisoned; and similar statistics in relation to employers and managerial staffs?

The Minister of Labour (Mr. Ernest Bevin): The available records indicate that, up to 31st December, 1942, 7,176 male workers, 1,278 female workers, and 68 employers were prosecuted for offences against the Defence Regulations and Orders for which my Department is responsible. 672 male workers and 92 female workers were sentenced to imprisonment.

Mr. Davies: Were any employers sent to prison?

Mr. Bevin: I do not think so.

Journalists

Mr. William Brown: asked the Minister of Labour whether he has registered for employment a list of trained journalists who have been discharged from the Forces as unfit or who are over military age; and whether he will cause Departments to use this list in order to replace

fit men of military age in their public relations sections?

Mr. Bevin: The Appointments Department of the Ministry has on its register particulars of all journalists who care to enrol. Applications by any Government Department for the deferment of calling-up of civil servants whose duties entail journalistic experience are considered by Lord Kennet's Committee in the light of information as to the supply of suitably qualified substitutes from among persons upon the Appointments Register. Government Departments are required to notify any vacancy for persons with journalistic experience to the Appointments Department in order that if possible the names of apparently suitable persons may be submitted.

Mr. Brown: Is the Minister sure that the conditions which he has specified are in fact carried out by the Government Departments, and is it not the case that appointments are made without reference to the Central Register?

Mr. Bevin: I have no information to that effect, but if any is brought to my attention, I will take it up with the Department concerned.

Directed Workers

Sir Irving Albery: asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware of the unfair discrimination which at present exists in the treatment of workers directed to other employment in other areas, as between workers covered by a trade agreement and those not so covered, which latter, in many cases, suffer cuts in pay and disadvantages as regards regulation working hours; and what he proposes to do about it?

Mr. Bevin: I am aware that workers who are employed in an industry in which an agreement is in operation providing for the payment of a transfer or dispersal bonus to workers sent to employment beyond daily travelling distance from their homes may sometimes be at an advantage as compared with workers in industries in which such an agreement is not in operation. I welcome the drawing-up of such trade agreements, but they are essentially matters for settlement by the industrial organisations concerned, and I cannot agree that in the absence of such agreements men should not be transferred to where their services are most urgently required in the national interest.

Sir I. Albery: Is it not the responsibility and the duty of the right hon. Gentleman, in exercising powers of direction to take any steps which are necessary to ensure that all men so directed are treated on terms of equality?

Mr. Bevin: I cannot get equality in this world. I have been trying for years.

Sir I. Albery: asked the Minister of Labour, in view of the fact that in a recent case, of which he has been informed, six ships' joiners from Tilbury were directed to employment, with the result that in the case of one elderly man the direction was later withdrawn and in three of the other cases appeals were upheld by the local board, with the result that only two of the directed men remained available for the work, whether he is satisfied that such cases are adequately considered before directions are issued and that no unnecessary disturbance and dissatisfaction is provoked?

Mr. Bevin: I am satisfied that, in the light of careful general guidance which is given them, National Service officers may be relied upon to exercise proper care in issuing directions under Regulation 58A (1) and that adequate safeguards to prevent undue hardship are in general provided by my allowing appeals to Local Appeal Boards. I have written to my hon. Friend in detail about the particular cases he had in mind.

Reinstated Workers (Wages)

Mr. Rhys Davies: asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that in certain cases, when a person employed under the provisions of the Essential Work Order is dismissed his employment and his local officers in due course decide against the employer, the employee is out of work for many weeks without income; that when the employer is made aware of the decision against him he may refuse to pay the back wages due to the workman; that the only redress open to the workman is to take proceedings for recovery in a court of law; that all this brings the Order into disrepute in the minds of the workers; and will he remedy this grievance?

Mr. Bevin: I assume my hon. Friend is referring to cases where the employee is dismissed for serious misconduct, and I would refer him to the reply I gave to the hon. Member for Peckham (Mr.

Silkin) on 26th November, 1942, of which I am sending him a copy. The Order makes provision for expeditious settlement of appeals and I am not aware of any general difficulty. If my hon. Friend will let me have particulars of any specific case he has in mind, I will make inquiry into it.

Mr. Davies: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the case which I have already sent to him and the reply that his Department gave to me are contained in the Question which I have now put to him, and that in the case in point the man was not dismissed for misconduct at all? Will he really look into this problem, because the workman is in a very serious position if he gets a decision from the Department in his favour and the employer refuses to pay up?

Mr. Thorne: Do I understand from the reply that the man dismissed from this firm has the right of appeal?

Mr. Bevin: Yes.

Mr. Ness Edwards: Is not the Minister aware that the court only give a direction that the man must be either re-employed or confirms his discharge, but do not say whether the discharge for misconduct was justified, and in those cases we are quite unable to recover wages due to the man if his discharge was not due to misconduct; can the Minister amend the form of decision given by these appeal boards?

Mr. Bevin: I am reluctant to amend the rule relating to misconduct. The word "misconduct" was used very definitely, and in war it sometimes involves very serious matters.

Temporarily Transferred Workers (Railway Warrants)

Miss Ward: asked the Minister of Labour whether, in cases where men are transferred temporarily to undertake urgent national work at the expense of the Government, when the work is completed a return voucher to the original place of departure will in future be allowed?

Mr. Bevin: I have made arrangements to provide free railway warrants for workers who, after transfer away from home at my Department's expense, return home, with the approval of the employment exchange, when the job comes to an end.

Workers' Grievances

Mr. Ellis Smith: asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware of the growing reluctance of some employers to consider, or remedy, the workpeople's grievances leading to unnecessary friction and in some cases cessation of production; and what steps have been, or are to be, taken to maintain the maximum output and good relations between all interests?

Mr. Bevin: No, Sir. I have no evidence of this. In my view the most effective way to maintain output and good relations is to provide full opportunity for free and frank discussion between representatives of both sides, and my Department is concerned to stimulate and encourage the formation of appropriate machinery for that purpose.

Lincolnshire Road Car Co. (Employees)

Mr. Kendall: asked the Minister of Labour whether, seeing that the control of the Lincolnshire Road Car Company has been transferred from the British Electric Traction undertaking to the Tilling Group, that the workers do not have the same facilities to transfer their services to other managements, and that negotiations have recently taken place with the unions concerned for an agreement covering the employees in the garages of the same company, he will support the National Union of Railway-men for the reopening of negotiations with the Lincolnshire Road Car Company to improve the present unsatisfactory conditions under which the omnibus drivers and conductresses are now working?

Mr. Bevin: Negotiations with regard to wages and conditions can be conducted through the recognised machinery in the industry, and I do not propose to interfere.

Mr. W. Brown: Is not the Minister aware that there has already been one fair-sized strike in this concern, which culminated in a number of prosecutions, and since the conditions which gave rise to that strike still persist and may give rise to another, is he powerless to take the initiative in preventing further trouble?

Mr. Bevin: No; under the conditions of the Arbitration Order we agreed to

recognise the machinery operating in the trade, and that machinery is functioning.

Industrial Catering Trade

Major-General Sir Alfred Knox: asked the Minister of Labour whether he has yet considered the Memorandum of Agreement regarding rates of pay and conditions of employment in industrial centres in factories submitted to him by the National Joint Industrial Council for the Industrial Catering Trade and acknowledged by him on 25th July, 1942; and whether as this agreement sets forth conditions agreed to by employers and the unions chiefly concerned, he will see his way to the application of the Essential Work Order to this industry in order to enable firms to find the necessary personnel to provide meals for their employees?

Mr. Bevin: I have considered this Memorandum and am not at present prepared to apply the Essential Work Order to the establishments referred to. I am writing on the subject to the National Joint Industrial Council.

Sir A. Knox: Does the right hon. Gentleman not agree that this Joint Industrial Council was formed between the employers and the two unions chiefly concerned, that is, the National Union of Distributive and Allied Workers and the National Union of General and Municipal Workers, and is it not right, as they have agreed on the terms of employment, that they should be granted this Essential Work Order, and not have to wait for the right hon. Gentleman to confirm the general proposals for conditions of working in hotels, restaurants and tea shops?

Mr. Bevin: The waiting has nothing to do with the Bill dealing with catering or conditions arising out of that Bill. The obligation under the Essential Work Order is that I have to tie a citizen to a job, and I am not satisfied that under this agreement I should be justified in taking that course.

Sir A. Knox: Can the right hon. Gentleman say what the objection is, as the unions and the employers have agreed?

Mr. Bevin: I am not prepared to discuss that in answer to a Question.

Sir A. Knox: Is it not collective bargaining?

Bank of England (Staff)

Sir A. Knox: asked the Minister of Labour the number of men and women employed by the Bank of England: and how many of the men are of military age?

Mr. Bevin: As I stated in reply to previous Questions asking for similar information, I am not prepared to publish information of this kind in respect of individual undertakings or organisations.

Sir A. Knox: Is it possible for the Minister to look into conditions in the Bank of England?

Mr. Bevin: Yes, Sir, we are doing it.

Elderly Men and Women (Employment)

Mr. Graham White: asked the Minister of Labour, as on the last convenient date, the number of men over 65 years of age and women over 60 years of age who are in registered employment?

Mr. Bevin: Information supplied by my right hon. Friends the Minister of Health and the Secretary of State for Scotland indicates that the approximate numbers of men over 65 and women over 60 who obtained some insurable employment in Great Britain during the first half of the year 1942, as shown by the receipt of contribution cards bearing one or more contributions for the period, were 550,000 men and 200,000 women. The numbers of such persons in employment at any particular date is not known but must be considerably less than those figures?

Essential Work Order (Juveniles)

Mr. Rhys Davies: asked the Minister of Labour whether he will exempt young persons from the provisions of the Essential Work Order so that they may have the opportunity of choosing the employment for which they may be best fitted as adults?

Mr. Bevin: No, Sir, But I am issuing instructions to emphasise that in administering the Order due regard must be paid to the best interests of the juvenile.

Mr. Davies: Will the Minister give further consideration to this very human problem, because while it might be fair to compel adults to remain at their jobs, it is a little unfair to compel young persons from 14 to, say, 18 to remain in the same job all the time?

Mr. Bevin: I disagree with that. Under war-time conditions the problem of controlling juveniles is a very difficult one, and I think that the steps I am taking to deal with it are far more effective than letting them run loose.

Engineering and Shipbuilding Draughtsmen

Mr. Kirkwood: asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that negotiations between the Association of Engineering and Shipbuilding Draughtsmen and Messrs. Drysdale and Company have been proceeding for four months without a satisfactory agreement being reached; whether he has considered the letter sent him by the workmen; and what action he proposes to take to bring these negotiations to an expeditious and satisfactory conclusion?

Mr. Bevin: The matter in question was only brought to the notice of the Department this week in a letter dated 16th January, from the men concerned, and the Department is now in touch with their trade union.

Mr. Kirkwood: In the event of the men not being satisfied with these negotiations, is the Minister prepared to go into the matter in order to try and ease the strain which exists in this particular works?

Mr. Bevin: I am not prepared to go outside the policy we have laid down of dealing with the executives of the unions and the federations.

Northern Ireland (Workers' Training)

Dr. Little: asked the Minister of Labour whether, in view of the promised expansion of war production in Northern Ireland, he will make immediate arrangements whereby capable persons will be brought to this country to receive the training necessary to equip them for holding key-positions in this intensfication of the war effort?

Mr. Bevin: Arrangements are already in operation under which suitable workers selected by the Government of Northern Ireland are trained under the Government Training Schemes in this country, for subsequent employment in Northern Ireland.

Dr. Little: Will the Minister largely extend the training facilities for men from Northern Ireland as the placing of more of these men in key positions in industry


would lead to an increase of war production in Northern Ireland?

Lieut.-Colonel Sir William Allen: Can the Minister tell us why no training centre has been established in Northern Ireland, where there is so much work being done?

Mr. Bevin: I think that question should be addressed to the Northern Ireland Government. I am not responsible for Northern Ireland.

Sir W. Allen: Surely the Minister understands that the Northern Ireland Government have nothing whatever to do with the prosecution of the war? It is entirely a matter for this Government and is their responsibility.

Mr. Bevin: I am afraid that is an entirely new doctrine. I thought Northern Ireland was the most patriotic place in the world.

British Restaurants (Workers' Remuneration and Hours)

Mr. Graham White: asked the Minister of Labour the present rates of remuneration and hours worked by different grades employed in British Restaurants?

Mr. Bevin: Complete information about the rates of remuneration and hours of workers in British Restaurants in Great Britain could not be obtained without special inquiry. For the purpose, however, of applying the Essential Work Order to British Restaurants, certain District Joint Industrial Councils for local authorities non-trading services (manual workers) in England and Wales have recommended to the affiliated local authorities rates of pay for 47-hour week. If my hon. Friend wishes to know the rates recommended by the District Council for the various grades of workers in British Restaurants in a particular area, I shall be glad to send him a written statement of the information held by the Department.

Mr. Thorne: Are not a very large number of waitresses in restaurants very badly paid?

Housing Accommodation, Oxford

Mr. Hogg: asked the Minister of Labour whether his attention has been drawn to instances in which employment exchanges responsible for directing labour

to Oxford have misled potential workers there by informing them that accommodation was available in Oxford for the families of war workers, with consequent inconvenience and disappointment to all concerned; and whether he will issue stringent instructions to exchanges to avoid a repetition of this practice?

Mr. Bevin: I am having inquiries made into the cases about which my hon. Friend has written to me, and will communicate the result to him.

Oral Answers to Questions — UNEMPLOYMENT FUND

Mr. Ellis Smith: asked the Minister of Labour whether he has considered the passage in the Report of the Unemployment Insurance Statutory Committee for 1941 in the course of which they state that it is arguable that Section 59 (2) of the Unemployment Insurance Act, 1935, should be regarded as suspended during the war; and what action he proposes to take in the matter?

Mr. Bevin: In the passage to which my hon. Friend refers the Committee call attention to the difficulty, in existing circumstances, of making the comparison between the resources and prospective liabilities of the Unemployment Fund which is necessary before a surplus or a deficiency can be reported for the purposes of Section 59 (2) of the Unemployment Insurance Act, 1935. I am satisfied that during the course of the war no further comparison of this kind can usefully be attempted and the Committee ought not to be expected to make it. I propose, therefore, with the concurrence of the Treasury, to make a Regulation suspending for the duration of the war the provisions of Section 59 (2), and certain other parts of Section 59 which are dependent upon this Sub-section. I should add that under Section 59 as amended the Committee will still be required to make an annual report on the financial condition of the Unemployment Fund and that this report will be laid before Parliament as heretofore.

Mr. Austin Hopkinson: May I ask whether that will involve legislation?

Mr. Bevin: No, it will be done by Regulation for the period of the war.

Oral Answers to Questions — COST OF LIVING

Mr. Tinker: asked the Minister of Labour the cost-of-living figures for 1938, 1939, 1940, 1941 and 1942?

Mr. Bevin: The official cost-of-living figures for the beginning of each month since January, 1920, are given in a table on page 219 of the "Ministry of Labour Gazette" for December, 1942, a copy of which can be consulted in the Library.

Mr. Tinker: As my Question was addressed to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, perhaps, Mr. Speaker, you would allow me to put this question to the Minister of Labour: Have the Government changed their intention of stabilising prices of essential foodstuffs, because from the recent increase in the price of tea it would seem to appear that they have departed from it?

Mr. Bevin: There is no change in policy.

Oral Answers to Questions — ALLIED POWERS (WAR SERVICE) ACT

Mr. G. Strauss: asked the Minister of Labour when it is proposed to implement the provisions of the Allied Powers (War Service) Act?

Mr. Bevin: The necessary discussions with the Allied Governments concerning the procedure and machinery required for the application of this Act are now almost completed. It is hoped to submit very shortly to His Majesty in Council the necessary Order in Council to apply the Act to the nationals of the Allied Governments in this country.

Oral Answers to Questions — INDIA

Armed Forces (Duty-Free Tobacco)

Mr. Bellenger: asked the Secretary of State for India whether he can now state what arrangements he has made with the Government of India to permit tobacco and cigarettes to be sent, duty free, to our troops serving in India?

The Secretary of State for India (Mr. Amery): I have asked the Government of India for a statement of their views and am awaiting their reply.

Mr. Bellenger: Some months have elapsed since the Secretary of State gave

exactly the same answer to another Question. Cannot my right hon. Friend expedite in some way or other a reply from the Government of India?

Mr. Amery: Yes, Sir; I have sent two telegraphic reminders in the last few weeks.

Bengal Cyclone

Mr. Sorensen: asked the Secretary of State for India whether he has any information respecting the Bengal cyclone disaster; how many lost their lives; how many dwellings were destroyed; and whether effective steps are being taken to relieve the distress?

Mr. Amery: I must apologise for the somewhat long reply: A considerable amount of information has already appeared in the Press. The following is a summary of the information available:
A heavy cyclone from the Bay of Bengal passed over the Districts of Midnapore and Twenty-Four Parganas on 16th October. It began about 7 a.m. and lasted 24 hours. A tidal wave, in places 26 feet high, penetrated over 10 miles inland. Approximate estimate of persons killed is 11,000; seriously affected 550,000; partially affected 1,000,000; cattle killed, 75,000; huts destroyed, 700,000; area affected, 3,000 square miles.
For the organisation of relief the affected area has been divided into 54 circles, each circle in charge of a full-time relief officer who plans and co-ordinates the work of Government and voluntary relief workers and organisations. The latter are undertaking the distribution of immediate gratuitous relief with food, clothing and other necessities, while Government attends to long-term relief such as loans to rebuild houses, reorganise businesses, and to purchase cattle, agricultural implements, and seed. The difficulties of relief work are intensified by lack of roads, flooding, damage to telegraph lines and also by the civil disobedience movement, which continues to obstruct Government workers. The Governor of Bengal has raised a fund for the relief of distress resulting from this disaster, and the High Commissioner for India, with the support of the Lord Mayor of London and others, has made an appeal here to which, I am glad to say, there has been a generous response.

Mr. Sorensen: Has any public expression of sympathy gone from the Viceroy or the Government regarding the victims of the disaster, and is the right hon. Gentleman personally satisfied that all is being done to meet the gravity of the situation?

Mr. Amery: With regard to the first part of the question, naturally those expressions went out at the time. As to the second part, I think I can say that everything possible is being done. I would remind my hon. Friend that the whole matter is being dealt with by the Government of Bengal and the Ministers of that Province.

Sir A. Knox: Have not British troops taken a very prominent part in the relief work?

Mr. Amery: Yes, I believe that our troops did all in their power to help and assist the villagers.

Mr. Muff: Is it not a fact that all sections of this House have shown great sympathy to those people in India in their travail?

Mr. Amery: Yes, Sir, we all do.

Murder and Rioting (Trial)

Mr. Sorensen: asked the Secretary of State for India, whether he will give particulars of the trial for murder and rioting in which 11 persons were sentenced to death and 13 others to transportation for life; whether others were also tried; and whether the accused were the only persons engaged in this crime or whether they formed part of a larger gathering?

Mr. Amery: I have no knowledge of the case, but have written to the Government of India for the desired information and will communicate with the hon. Member on its receipt.

Mr. Sorensen: I suppose the right hon. Gentleman cannot give any indication of when that reply is likely to be received by him?

Mr. Amery: Letters take between two and three weeks to get out.

Food Situation (Relief Measures)

Sir Stanley Reed: asked the Secretary of State for India whether he has any statement to make on the food situation

in India and the measures taken to meet it?

Mr. Ammon: asked the Secretary of State for India whether he can make a statement as to conditions in India caused by floods; and to what extent do famine conditions obtain?

Mr. Thorne: asked the Secretary of State for India what is being done to relieve the distress in India because of the shortage of rain; whether he is aware that rice which used to be 1d. per pound is now being sold in Bombay at 1s. per pound; and whether he is aware that this means near starvation?

Mr. Amery: The food situation in India is causing considerable anxiety. Last year's food crops were, in general, satisfactory, but the loss of the Burma rice crop, of which about one and a half million tons normally goes to India, coupled with increased demands for the Army, a serious failure of the millet crop in certain parts of the country, caused prices to rise and food to become in many parts of the country not only dear but scarce. A flood in Sind, and cyclones in Orissa and Bengal accompanied by flooding have been contributory factors but have not in themselves caused more than temporary and local shortages.
At first the problem was mainly one of distribution, but it must now be accepted that there is a shortage, though that shortage affects only urban areas and a few rural areas where crops have failed. With care and proper distribution there should be enough to go round, and there is no cause for alarm, but the distribution problem is undoubtedly difficult. The Government of India's first measure to meet this vital problem was to centralise in a Food Department a number of administrative functions hitherto spread over various Departments of Government. They have also arranged for purchases of wheat by Government agents from producing areas for the deficiency areas, and similar arrangements are being made for the purchase of other food grains, but the results so far have been disappointing, owing to hoarding and profiteering, which are particularly difficult to deal with. The possibility of individual rationing in urban areas is being seriously examined, and preparatory measures are already being put in train in some of the larger cities. But the administrative difficulties in a


country such as India are obviously great. The question of shipping wheat for India from overseas to tide over the difficult period before the new wheat crop comes on to the market in April is being urgently considered by His Majesty's Government, and I trust that it will be possible to make an announcement on the subject in the near future.

Sir S. Reed: Will my right hon. Friend stress the fact that the paramount importance in these unique conditions in India is the control of prices, which are rocketing to unheard-of heights; and will he press with the utmost influence he has for the release of transport to bring to India the supplementary food supplies that are imperative?

Mr. Amery: The answer to the first part of the Question is that the matter is being very earnestly kept in view by the Government of India, and to the second part that that particular matter has naturally also occupied the attention of His Majesty's Government.

Mr. Thorne: The Minister is really sympathetic, but he does not mention what he intends doing to prevent the rapid rise in the price of rice.

Mr. Amery: If the hon. Member will read my answer, which was unavoidably long, I think he will see that that point is covered.

Mr. Sorensen: Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that he merely refers to the fact that the Government of India are reviewing or have reviewed the situation? There is no indication in the reply of what particular steps are being taken to control prices and prevent profiteering.

Mr. Amery: Again I think the hon. Member will find that that is covered.

Captain Godfrey Nicholson: Can my right hon. Friend hold out any hope that the Government of India will be able to secure the release of accumulated stocks in Provinces where there is an accumulated surplus?

Mr. Amery: Yes, Sir, that is being done.

Press Restrictions

Mr. Sorensen: asked the Secretary of State for India whether he is aware

that all sections of the Indian Press have expressed their resentment against existing restrictions imposed upon their publication of news and suspended the appearance of their journals for one day in order to register their indignation; and whether steps will immediately be taken to withdraw restrictions incompatible with our accepted principles of Press freedom?

Mr. Amery: I am aware that a section of the Indian Press, consisting of the majority of the Hindu nationalist Press, refrained from publication on 6th January in protest against an order prohibiting publication of messages relating to the fast of Professor Bhansali, who was agitating for an inquiry into excesses alleged to have been committed by troops and police at Chimur last August. Professor Bhansali has since abandoned his fast and withdrawn his demand for an inquiry. The Press restrictions have in consequence been modified, and the Press on their part have withdrawn their threat of reprisals. The authorities, who were fully satisfied of the baselessness of the allegations against Government servants at Chimur, were obliged to impose the Press restrictions in order to prevent the possibility of a misconceived but dangerous mass agitation, and I see no reason to question their action.

Mr. Sorensen: Is it not a fact that the majority of newspapers in India, including the non-Congress newspapers, issued very strong protests against this restriction on their liberties?

Mr. Amery: Yes, Sir.

Oral Answers to Questions — CIVIL DEFENCE

Fire Guards (Catering Establishments)

Mr. Leslie: asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether workers will be exempted from fire-watching in catering establishments where they are employed in many cases up to 70 hours per week?

The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Herbert Morrison): Men may be granted exemption by the Tribunals on grounds of exceptional hardship if they regularly work exceptionally long hours in such trades as catering. Women who regularly work such hours may be exempted by the appropriate authority for the premises.

Mr. Leslie: Is my right hon. Friend aware that in certain hotels and restaurants there is a decided shortage at the present time, due mainly to the fact that they preferred to employ aliens before the war, that this shortage means excessive hours and that it is too bad to expect their employees to do fire-watching after working a 70-hour week?

Mr. Morrison: I shall be glad to consider that if my hon. Friend will be good enough to let me have particulars.

Mr. Leslie: I will.

Air-Raid Shelters

Mr. Hamilton Kerr: asked the Home Secretary how many local authorities had made provision for air-raid shelters before the issue of the Ministry of Home Security Circular 262/1940, dated 19th October, 1940, and are thereby prevented from receiving 100 per cent. grant from the Ministry for the construction of shelters?

Mr. H. Morrison: 461 local authorities had constructed air-raid shelters or entered into contracts for such construction at the time of the issue of the Circular of 19th October, 1940. The fact that a local authority provided shelter before that date does not make them ineligible for reimbursement of approved expenditure incurred on the provision of shelter thereafter.

Mr. Kerr: Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is considerable dissatisfaction among some local authorities, particularly the poorer ones, and would he be willing to receive me, so that I can put the case of Oldham before him?

Mr. Morrison: I have, of course, argued this out with the local authorities, and, indeed, with the House itself, and I am afraid I have dug my heels right in, and I do not think I could get them out; nor do I think I ought to do so, but if my hon. Friend would like to come and see me, I shall be perfectly willing to receive him.

Mr. Hannah: asked the Home Secretary (1) whether he has considered the possible danger to the public of shelters which for any reason have become unsafe; and what action does he propose to take, especially, in view of the fact that the staffs employed by the local authorities have been greatly depleted by war;
(2) whether, in view of the responsibility that falls on local authorities who have built shelters which are, or may become, dangerous from being vaulted with lime, mortar, or other unsuitable materials, in the event of accidents, especially to unattended children playing in them, he will take steps to enable local authorities to insure against this risk, the premiums being recoverable from the National Exchequer?

Mr. Morrison: In March, 1941, directions were issued for a comprenhesive survey of public and communal surface shelters built in ungauged lime mortar or lime cement mortar, and instructions were given that shelters visibly unstable should be demolished and that those which could not be certified as satisfactory should be either demolished or closed by means of some physical obstruction to prevent entry. It was verified in July, 1941, that all such defective shelters had been dealt with in accordance with these instructions. It is the responsibility of a local authority to keep under review the condition of the shelters in its area and to take steps to demolish or prevent access to any which become unsafe. The Department's technical officers are prepared to give all possible assistance to local authorities in the discharge of this duty. I understand that many local authorities make a practice of insuring their liability to the public for risks arising out of the performance of their statutory functions, but I have not felt able to recognise for purposes of Exchequer grant the cost of any additional premiums which may have been paid to cover the special risks attributable to Civil Defence activities. If the policy of demolishing or preventing access to shelters which become unsafe is duly observed, the need for insuring against the risk of injury to the public in this connection will not arise.

Sir William Davison: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in yesterday's raid a considerable number of people ran to shelters for safety, but were unable to get into them because they were locked? Will he look into this matter to see that they are made available for the public against splinters from our own shells?

Mr. Morrison: Yes, Sir, I will look into that question, but the actual maintenance and management of shelters is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Minister of


Health, and I think it only fair to him to say that he is in a great dilemma owing to the scandalous misuse of, and damage to, shelters by some citizens about whose conduct I find it difficult to express an opinion.

Sir Percy Harris: Cannot wardens be supplied with keys?

Mr. Morrison: That is done, but it is a great problem when there is not much time between the siren and the guns.

Cycle Lamps

Commander King-Hall: asked the Home Secretary whether he will cancel the existing Order which requires pedal cyclists to blacken out or otherwise render inoperative the lower half of their reflectors?

Mr. H. Morrison: Cycle lamps treated in the manner suggested by my hon. and gallant Friend have been tested, but they were found to be dazzling to other road users as well as unsatisfactory from the security point of view. Endeavours are, however, being made to find alternative solutions.

Commander King-Hall: While I recognise the sympathic attitude shown by the Minister, will he do his best to accelerate a solution of this problem, which has been in existence for many months and which has resulted in thousands of hours of work being lost by people who have been trying to get about on bicycles in the blackout?

Mr. Morrison: I am deeply sympathetic. I want to help cyclists all I can and, thereby, the war effort. I will do anything I can.

Defence Regulations

Sir I. Albery: asked the Home Secretary, having in view the improved position as regards National Defence, the drastic security measures in force, and the various registration Regulations, whether he will now consider the desirability of amending any Defence Regulations which deprive British subjects of the right of appeal when their personal liberty is involved?

Mr. H. Morrison: I presume that in referring to Regulations affecting personal liberty my hon. Friend has specially in mind the power to detain which is conferred

upon the Secretary of State by Regulation 18B. The considerations referred to by my hon. Friend are of course taken into account by the Home Secretary when deciding how far the exercise of such powers is still necessary, and it is one of the factors which I have had in mind in authorising the release of a number of persons who had been detained. The curtailment of these powers which it may be necessary to invoke at any time in the interests of national security is, however, another matter, and in the view of His Majesty's Government the time has not come when it would be safe to deprive the Executive of these special powers.

Sir I. Albery: The right hon. Gentleman answered as if he had been asked to forgo his powers. That does not arise. If the right hon. Gentleman reads the Question again, he will find that the main principle raised is that of appeal after a man has been arrested and detained on suspicion.

Mr. Morrison: I assumed that the hon. Gentleman wishes, as he always has wished, to limit my powers in the matter, and I thought I should indicate to him that I cannot do so. The point to which he has drawn attention is fully taken into account, and the consequences are that many scores, if not hundreds, of people have been released in recent times who would not have been considered for release earlier.

Mr. Gallacher: Will the Minister take a trip to North Africa and use these special powers there?

Motor Vehicles (Immobilisation)

Mr. Higgs: asked the Home Secretary whether he will consider relaxing the restrictions on the immobilisation of motor vehicles when parked on public property?

Mr. H. Morrison: The present restrictions apply whether a vehicle is parked on private or public property, and I cannot find justification for differentiating in the manner proposed by my hon. Friend.

Captain C. S. Taylor: Has not this Regulation now outlived its usefulness?

Mr. Morrison: I am not convinced that that is so, although I will from time to time review this matter in the light of current circumstances.

Detainee (Right of Application to High Court)

Major Lyons: asked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been called to the application of Mr. Thomas Wilson, heard on the 18th instant in the King's Bench Division of His Majesty's High Court of Justice, and to the matter of the material document then stated to have been intercepted and not allowed to proceed; and by whom and upon whose instructions this was done?

Lieut.-Colonel Dower: asked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been drawn to the judgment of Mr. Justice Humphreys in Rex v. Anderson ex parte Wilson; and what disciplinary steps have been taken regarding the unnamed official at the Home Office who took it on himself to intercept and refuse to forward the application by Captain Wilson not to be detained indefinitely and to be put on trial, and to have his case considered?

Sir Henry Morris-Jones: On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker. These Questions refer to a matter about which there is a Motion on the Order Paper in the names of several hon. Members of this House and myself, asking the Leader of the House whether we might have a discussion on the matter. [That this House views with alarm the disclosures brought out at the sitting of the High Court of Justice (King's Bench Division), on 18th January, in regard to the intervention of an unnamed official at the Home Office whereby a citizen was deprived of his inalienable right of application to the court to have his detention under Regulation 18B considered by the court.] While I do not want to prejudice these Questions, can I have a Ruling as to whether my hon. and gallant Friends should get an answer to them now?

Mr. H. Morrison: Further to that point of Order. I did not know that the Motion had been put down before the Questions, but in any case I think that, in view of the public interest in this matter, it would be unfortunate if these Questions were not answered to-day.

Mr. Speaker: The Questions were put down before the Motion.

Mr. Morrison: Then, with your permission, Mr. Speaker, I will make a statement in reply to them at the end of Questions.

Later—

Mr. H. Morrison: In June, 1940, Mr. Wilson, who was at the time detained under Regulation 18B, addressed a communication to the Divisional Court asking that he might be put on trial for some specific offence or offences instead of being detained under the Regulation. The letter was submitted to the Home Office by the prison authorities, and was stopped by an officer because he thought that this was not the proper way for the applicant to approach the Court; that he knew that the applicant was at the time in touch with his solicitors; and that he thought that any application of this kind should be made through the applicant's legal advisers in the appropriate way. This view was entirely mistaken, and my predecessor, who was in office when the mistake occurred, has expressed to the Court his regret that the letter was not forwarded. I am satisfied that the mistake, which occurred at a time when the Department was subject to exceptional stress, was entirely due to an error of judgment. Mr. Justice Humphreys, while strongly censuring any interferences with the right of a British subject who is detained to approach the Court, said in his judgment: "It does not appear that any actual harm accrued to Mr. Wilson from that document being detained"; and he added, "I cannot myself see the smallest justification for suggesting in this case that anything intentionally wrong was done by anyone in the Home Office."
As regards the particular officer concerned, I am satisfied that no disciplinary action is called for; the strictures passed by the High Court will serve as a valuable lesson to him, as to all officers. I need hardly say that steps have been taken to see that a similar mistake shall not recur, and I wish to express my regret and that of the Lord President that this grave error should have occurred. I must, however, bear in mind that if public business is to be done with proper despatch, appropriate responsibilities must be undertaken by officers. While there must be adequate methods of supervision and instruction, there must not be so elaborate a system of checks and counter-checks as will create intolerable delays and the over-burdening of higher authority.

Major Lyons: Although my Question asks for the name of the officer concerned,


it is entirely with the right hon. Gentleman whether he gives the name or not, and, as far as I am concerned, I do hot press for it. May I say that I think the statement that has been made by the right hon. Gentleman will allay public anxiety on this grave matter?

Mr. Morrison: I am much obliged to the hon. and gallant Gentleman. With regard to the name of the officer, I am grateful to him for the view he has taken. My view is that vis-a-vis Parliament I must accept responsibility. The officers of the Department accept responsibility to me, and if they do wrong things they will have a bad time, but in the House it is I who must take the blame.

Sir H. Morris-Jones: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the strictures made by the learned Judge aroused very grave misgivings and that hon. Members have received large numbers of letters concerning the matter; and, in view of the fact that at the present time inevitably, in conditions of war, we must be governed to a much greater extent by officials than in time of peace, will my right hon. Friend definitely assure us that an incident of this character will not occur again?

Mr. Morrison: I have informed the House that vigorous steps have been taken to prevent any repetition, but this is a human world, and I do hot think I should be wise to give any positive guarantee of a 100 per cent. character. I think that in the light of my reply the public will be satisfied.

Oral Answers to Questions — INJURED HORSE, LONDON

Mr. Frankel: asked the Home Secretary whether he will cause inquiries to be made into the circumstances of an incident in Endell Street, W.C.2, on the afternoon of Tuesday, 15th December, where a seriously injured horse was kept standing in the road for over 90 minutes because of delay in the arrival of the necessary personnel to put it out of its agony; and whether he will take steps to prevent similar episodes?

Mr. H. Morrison: I have made inquiry, and I regret that there was a delay of 65 minutes from the time of the accident before the horse could be destroyed. Suitable measures are being taken to prevent such a delay in future. I am glad, however,

to inform my hon. Friend that in this case the veterinary surgeon was of opinion that, as the injured limb was numb, the animal was not actually in pain.

Oral Answers to Questions — BETTING TRANSACTIONS

Mr. Barr: asked the Home Secretary whether he will take action to stop, or restrict, the volume of betting transactions as being injurious to the nation's war effort, particularly in view of the recent case where a turf accountant gave evidence that his firm had had commitments amounting to £300,000 on the St. Leger alone?

Mr. H. Morrison: Race meetings have been drastically restricted in the interests of the war effort and the reduction in the number of meetings may no doubt have resulted in the concentration of a large volume of bets on any particular meeting. Whatever arguments there may be on social grounds for amending the laws relating to betting, I do not think that on my present information the Government would be justified in using for this purpose their special war powers.

Mr. Barr: Does the Minister realise that in the court the man made a plea that this was an essential journey and that he had to take a motor car all the way from Liverpool Street to Newmarket, because the firm had commitments amounting to £300,000 on the St. Leger, £12,000 of which was on one horse; and even taking the position which he has indicated, is this not quite an abnormal fact to occur in war-time, or almost at any time, in the disposal of money?

Mr. Morrison: I think that my hon. Friend's Supplementary Question turns on the use of motor transport and petrol for the purpose, and that would be a question for my right hon. and gallant Friend the Minister of Fuel and Power.

Oral Answers to Questions — GUERNSEY (DEPORTATIONS)

Mr. Ammon: asked the Home Secretary the number of people deported by the Germans from Guernsey?

Mr. H. Morrison: Lists have now been received from the German Government of some 800 persons deported from Guernsey.

Mr. Mander: Can my right hon. Friend say whether there is any information, or whether information can be obtained from the Red Cross or otherwise, of the conditions under which these persons are living at the present time?

Mr. Morrison: A certain amount of information has been received, but I rather think it is of such a character that I would not like to place complete reliance upon it, and perhaps it would be misleading to give public expression to it. But, if my hon. Friend wishes to see me, I shall be glad to give him what information I have.

Oral Answers to Questions — JEWISH AND OTHER REFUGEES (VISAS)

Professor A. V. Hill: asked the Home Secretary whether there has been any change, since the declaration of the United Nations on 17th December, in the policy of his Department with regard to the issue of visas for Jewish or other refugees who manage to escape from enemy or enemy-occupied countries?

Miss Rathbone: asked the Home Secretary (1) whether there has been any alteration, since December 1942, in the policy carried out by his Department with regard to the issue of visas for Jewish or political refugees in danger from Nazi persecution; and whether he will state, for the guidance of those who desire to apply for visas for individual cases, the existing Regulations governing this matter;
(2) whether he will give special attention to requests for visas for this country for endangered Jewish or other persons still in enemy-occupied countries whose relatives here have reason to believe that the endangered person would be received into a neutral country, if the authorities of that country were first assured that a visa for this country would be available?

Mr. H. Morrison: I cannot, at present, add anything to the statement made on Tuesday by the Deputy Prime Minister.

Miss Rathbone: Is not the Minister aware that that statement gives hope only to people in neutral countries, and of the great assistance it is to refugees from enemy countries if their relatives in neutral countries are able to assure the British consuls that they possess visas for them to enter this country? Will he

seriously consider changing these Regulations, which are a most serious obstacle to the rescue of refugees in enemy-occupied countries?

Mr. Morrison: I should have thought there were considerable difficulties about visas for people in enemy-occupied territories, but I do not think I ought to add to the statement which the Deputy Prime Minister made that we are in the fullest consultation with Allied Governments on the matter.

Dr. Russell Thomas: Will the Minister say that whoever get visas to come to this country will duly return to their own countries of origin when the war is over?

Mr. Morrison: I think it has always been assumed, though there has been no decision on the point, that the refugees in question were here for a temporary period.

Miss Rathbone: asked the Home Secretary how many men, women and children, respectively, have, during the past six months, been granted visas for this country; how many of these have been admitted; and how many of them were Jews or non-Aryans in danger from Nazi persecution?

Mr. Morrison: The number of visas which I specially authorised during the six months to 31st December last was 900, of which 478 were for males and 422 for females. 183 of the visas were to enable children from Vichy France to come here to join relatives in this country. All those to whom visas were granted and who arrived here have been admitted, but figures are not available, without special inquiry, as to how many have, so far, arrived, nor have I the particulars asked for in the last part of the Question.

Miss Rathbone: Is not the Minister aware that the extreme meagreness of our own efforts and the rigidity of our Regulations are a serious impediment to people in Allied and neutral countries to show generosity? Must we not set an example?

Mr. Morrison: I think the observations of the hon. Lady are grossly unfair. This country and the British Empire can stand up to distinctly favourable comparison with any other country in the world.

Mr. Woolley: Is it not a fact that this country is now looking after 225,000 refugees?

Mr. Morrison: I forget the number, but it is very substantial. I am sorry if I was a little heated, but I do resent implications that this country has not done a considerable amount.

Mr. De la Bère: The Home Secretary is quite right.

Oral Answers to Questions — POLICE FORCES (AMALGAMATION)

Mr. Touche: asked the Home Secretary whether he will give an assurance that where borough police forces are amalgamated with county police forces members of a borough police force will not normally be transferred to other districts, in view of the fact that such men were previously only under an obligation for service in a particular borough and have made their domestic arrangements on this assumption?

Mr. H. Morrison: It would certainly be my wish that transfers of members of borough forces should be avoided except in so far as they may be necessary in individual cases in the interests of efficiency, or as a result of promotion, and I propose to make my views known to each chief constable who is to have charge of a joint force. I have no doubt that they will recognise the desirability of avoiding transfers except for some such reason as I have indicated and I am confident that the members of the borough forces need have no fear that they will be unnecessarily disturbed.

Oral Answers to Questions — PRODUCTION (SCIENTIFIC ADVICE)

Mr. Salt: asked the Prime Minister what changes in the scientific direction and co-ordination of the war effort are involved by the appointment of his personal scientific adviser as Paymaster-General and the transfer of the Lord Privy Seal to the Ministry of Aircraft Production; and whether, in particular, the latter change in any way modifies the arrangements with regard to the link between the scientific advisers to the Ministry of Production?

The Deputy Prime Minister (Mr. Attlee): No change in the scientific direction and co-ordination of the war effort are involved by the appointments to which

my hon. Friend refers. As regards the last part of the Question, I would refer him to the reply which my right hon. Friend the Minister of Production gave yesterday in reply to a Question by my hon. Friend the Member for East Middlesbrough (Mr. A. Edwards).

Oral Answers to Questions — REQUISITIONED HOUSES (BOMBED AREAS)

Mr. McNeil: asked the Prime Minister the policy of His Majesty's Government towards the Services requisitioning dwelling houses in towns and areas where enemy bombing has already created grave housing deficiencies?

Mr. Attlee: In general only empty houses are requisitioned for Service personnel, and the needs of the local population are, as far as possible, taken into account in so doing. My hon. Friend will, however, appreciate that the location of Service personnel is governed by military necessity.

Mr. McNeil: Does the Minister appreciate that in Greenock more than 50 occupied dwelling-houses have been requisitioned and that it creates bad feeling?

Mr. Attlee: If the hon. Member has some particular case in mind and will bring it to my attention or to that of the Service Minister concerned, it will be looked into.

Mr. McNeil: I shall be delighted to bring it to the attention of the right hon. Gentleman, because I have failed completely with the Admiralty, with whom I have been in touch repeatedly.

Oral Answers to Questions — BEVERIDGE COMMITTEE (SIGNING OF REPORT)

Sir John Mellor: asked the Minister without Portfolio why the House of Commons was not informed in January, 1942, of the decision that 11 out of 12 members of the Beveridge Committee would not sign the Report?

The Minister without Portfolio (Sir William Jowitt): I understand it was considered at the time that it would suffice if the decision were made known when the Report was presented to Parliament.

Sir J. Mellor: Is there any precedent for keeping the House of Commons in


ignorance for over 10 months of a decision of this character? In view of that fact, has the Minister asked his predecessor for an explanation of this omission?

Sir W. Jowitt: No, Sir, I have not asked for an explanation, because it is obvious that the explanation I gave is the true one.

Commander Agnew: Are the 11 persons allowed to address public meetings in its favour, or does that apply only to Sir William Beveridge himself?

Sir W. Jowitt: The hon. and gallant Member had better put a Question down on the subject. Of course, the other members are civil servants.

Mr. Pickthorn: Is there any precedent in the case of an inter-departmental committee for a decision that the civil servants on the committee should have nothing to do with the actual report?

Sir W. Jowitt: The Civil Service members had a great deal to do with the actual Report, but it was thought that they would be able to express their opinions more freely if they had not to sign the Report.

Mr. Pickthorn: Is there any precedent for that situation?

Sir W. Jowitt: Really, I do not know.

Mr. Mander: Is it fair to say, as is stated in the Question, that these II persons would not sign the Report? Is it not the case that the question never arose at all?

Sir W. Jowitt: That is so.

Sir I. Albery: This is a most important matter. Will the Minister give some answer to make a little clearer to the House in what circumstances the 11 persons did not sign?

Sir W. Jowitt: I think the hon. Member might put a Question down about that. They did not sign. They were relieved of the duty of signing in order to leave them an opportunity to express more freely what their personal opinions were.

Sir J. Mellor: On a point of Order. Does not the Supplementary Question of the hon. Member for East Wolverhampton (Mr. Mander), to which I understand the Minister gave his assent, cast a reflection on the fairness of the Question on the Paper, and is it not only right that the

Minister should give an explanation of why he assented?

Sir W. Jowitt: I will do so readily. It is a fact, of course, that these departmental representatives did not refuse to sign. It is the fact that they were relieved in advance of the duty and obligation of having to sign.

Mr. Arthur Greenwood: Is it not the case, as is made clear in the opening pages of the Report, that, by agreement between the Minister and myself and in order not to embarrass Ministers, those persons were relieved of the obligation of responsibility for the findings?

Sir W. Jowitt: That is so. I think it was done with the object of not embarrassing Ministers and of not embarrassing the departmental representatives themselves.

Oral Answers to Questions — AGRICULTURE

Italian Prisoners (Conveyance by Coach)

Captain C. S. Taylor: asked the Minister of Agriculture why a luxury coach, Alpha B.R.V. 722, leaves daily a destination, of which he has been informed, to convey Italian prisoners of war a distance of approximately 20 miles to work and returns in the evening to take them back to camp; and whether, in order to save petrol, the journey could be undertaken by train or the coach remain at the place of work until evening?

The Minister of Agriculture (Mr. R. S. Hudson): It would not be possible in this case for the prisoners to travel to and from their work by train without a very considerable loss of working time. Normally, lorries are provided for conveying prisoners, but in this case I am informed that this coach has been the only available vehicle. I will look further into the question whether the coach can remain at the place of work during the day, if it is not required for other purposes elsewhere.

Workers' Cottages

Mr. De la Bère: asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he is conferring with the appropriate Minister or Ministry, in connection with the planning and building of cottages for farm-workers, in view of the fact, that since the war began there has been a big increase in food production but no corresponding increase in housing accommodation for those who labour on the soil?

Mr. Hudson: I am already conferring with the other Ministers concerned as to the practicability of building more cottages for farm workers at an early date, but I am not yet in a position to make any announcement.

Mr. De la Bère: Does my right hon. Friend realise the vital urgency of getting these houses built at the earliest possible moment?

Mr. Hudson: Yes, Sir, that is why I am conferring with my colleagues.

Bran Rationing

Mr. Graham White: asked the Minister of Agriculture whether, in view of the increasing and inconvenient accumulations of bran at certain centres and the desirability of increasing the bran ration to dairy farmers at this important period of lactation, he proposes to increase the coupon value?

Mr. Hudson: No, Sir. Existing coupon issues will fully asborb the whole of the cereal feeding-stuffs, including bran, likely to be available in the current rationing period, and an increase in the coupon value is impracticable. Other measures are being adopted to accelerate the reduction of temporary local accumulations of bran.

Mr. White: Does that mean that free distribution will be made in certain areas?

Veterinary Investigation Officers (Powers)

Mr. David: Adams asked the Minister of Agriculture whether veterinary investigation officers, now being appointed in many parts of the country, possess executive authority to ensure that farmers shall adopt methods to improve the conditions and preserve the lives of their stock and thus save annually large numbers of animals whose potential value in meat, wool, &c., is being lost to the country?

Mr. Hudson: Veterinary investigation officers do not possess such authority. Their duties are to conduct investigations and advisory work in their respective areas under my Department's scheme for the provision of technical advice to farmers?

Mr. Adams: Is the Minister aware that this voluntary method has been in operation during the last 100 years without much success, and does he not consider that some compulsion is essential to-day

to save large quantities of stock which are dying?

Mr. Hudson: I have not been Minister of Agriculture for 100 years.

Tractor Drivers

Mr. Parker: asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he is aware that the work of a full-time tractor driver employed by county war agricultural executive committees, using scarce and valuable machinery under little supervision on widely different types of land, is of greater national importance and requires greater skill than almost any work performed for individual farmers; and will he therefore instruct the committees to make sure that they have sufficient skilled drivers available, to cease advertising only for drivers not already privately employed and to retain the services of the best of the new trainees for their own employment?

Mr. Hudson: I am sure that committees appreciate the importance of this matter and that no additional instructions on the lines suggested are required.

Sewage Sludge

Mr. Parker: asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he is yet able to issue his promised statement on the production and use of sewage sludge as compost, or otherwise?

Mr. Hudson: I hope to be able to issue a statement very shortly.

Mr. Parker: Can the Minister give a date?

Mr. Hudson: It is to be considered at the beginning of next month by the Agricultural Improvement Council, and as soon as they let me have their views I hope to be able to make a statement.

Milk Production (Brewers' Grains)

Brigadier-General Clifton Brown: asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he is aware of a considerable reduction in milk production owing to brewers' grains being no longer available for feeding cows; and whether he will arrange with brewers to sell their grains in the winter months when grass is no longer available?

Mr. Hudson: I am not aware that either milk output or the quantity of brewers' grains fed to cows has been reduced. County war agricultural executive committees have, in fact, been


authorised to divert wet grains to dairy farmers when such a diversion is desirable to maintain milk supplies.

Brigadier-General Brown: Does not my right hon. Friend realise that if we want milk we must grow grain at this time of the year?

Mr. Hudson: That is why I am diverting this grain to dairy farmers.

Oral Answers to Questions — NORTHERN IRELAND (IMMIGRATION PERMITS)

Dr. Little: asked the Home Secretary whether, in view of the large number of unemployed in Northern Ireland who are anxious to be engaged in war work, he will give instructions that no further permits will be granted to persons outside its bounds to enable them to cross the border in search of work until its own unemployed have been absorbed in industry?

Mr. H. Morrison: I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer which my right hon. Friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State gave yesterday.

Dr. Little: Is my right hon. Friend aware that statements are being made privately and in the Press that natives of Northern Ireland are being paid off, even members of the Home Guard and Special Constabulary, and that outsiders are being taken on and given work? Is it not time that this was stopped?

Mr. Morrison: I was not aware of that.

Dr. Little: Then will my right hon. Friend receive a newspaper cutting from me and look into the matter?

Mr. Morrison: I regularly read newspaper cuttings, and another one will not do me any harm.

Dr. Little: It might do my right hon. Friend some good.

Oral Answers to Questions — POST-WAR EDUCATIONAL REFORM

Mr. Hannah: asked the President of the Board of Education whether he is contemplating any change in the status or functions of Part III education committees?

The President of the Board of Education (Mr. Butler): Consideration must be

given to the nature and functions of units of local educational administration in connection with any proposals for post-war educational reform. I have invited my right hon. and learned Friend the Minister without Portfolio to advise me on this matter. He is now engaged in receiving evidence from the various associations representative of local education authorities. I cannot reach any conclusions until I have examined his report.

Mr. Denman: Does this mean that the Education Bill is to be held up indefinitely until the Departments have investigated such questions as this?

Mr. Butler: No, Sir. My right hon. and learned Friend is an expeditious worker.

Mr. Lipson: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that some Part III education authorities are extremely efficient?

Mr. Butler: I am well aware of that.

Mr. Kenneth Lindsay: Is the Minister without Portfolio examining the educational considerations arising out of the existence of Part III authorities or the framework of local government generally?

Mr. Butler: I think the two are bound up together, but my right hon. and learned Friend is considering them in relation to the general schemes which I have in mind.

Mr. Messer: Is there a suggestion of transferring Part II powers to Part III authorities?

Mr. Butter: All these things will be investigated.

Oral Answers to Questions — PUBLIC HEALTH

Urban Districts, Lancashire (Medical Officer)

Sir Robert Young: asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that Dr. Appleton, the medical officer of health for the Newton urban district council and for the urban district council of Golborne, both of which towns, with their outlying districts, cover large areas, has also the supervision of the Newton isolation hospital, which accepts patients from other districts; that the immunisation scheme is in his hands and that there are clinics in Newton, Golborne, Lowton and Culcheth, for which he is medically responsible; and what arrangements are made, or are likely


to be made, for the work of these health agencies in the event of Dr. Appleton being withdrawn for military service?

The Minister of Health (Mr. Ernest Brown): I am aware of the facts stated in the first part of my hon. Friend's Question. It is understood that the Lancashire County Council are prepared to make one of their Assistant County Medical Officers available to carry on the public health medical services of these two authorities in the event of Dr. Appleton's recruitment and that this arrangement has been discussed with the local authorities concerned.

Sir R. Young: Does that mean that the county medical authorities will be entirely responsible for these health services, and is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the doctors of the areas referred to have stated that it is impossible for them to give time to assist in the administration of essential health services?

Mr. Brown: I think my answer and the letter I have sent to my hon. Friend indicate clearly what the position is.

War-time Nurseries

Mr. Frankel: asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that the fee charged for the use of war-time nurseries is 1s. per day, irrespective of the length of time during which the children are cared for, so a woman whose children are only in the nursery for half a day because she is only working part time has to pay the same fee as those who are working full time and whose children are looked after for the whole day; and whether he will consider grading the amount of the fee in accordance with the circumstances?

Mr. E. Brown: The fee of 1s. per day charged for the use of whole-time war nurseries represents only a fraction of the total cost of the nurseries which provide meals as well as care for the children who attend them. It is the general experience that women working part-time usually leave the children for the mid-day meal, but where the child is not in the nursery for the mid-day meal a suitable reduction may be made in the charge.

Casualty Cattle, North Staffordshire

Mr. Ellis Smith: asked the Minister of Health whether his attention has been directed to the great concern in North

Staffordshire through the revelations made about casualty cattle and slink meat; can he make a statement on the matter; and is he satisfied with the interpretation and effectiveness of the present Regulations?

Mr. E. Brown: The execution of the Food and Drugs Act and the Public Health (Meat) Regulations is the responsibility of the appropriate local authority. I have been in communication with the Stoke-on-Trent City Council with regard to the question, and I am informed that, having been seriously concerned at the increase in the number of casualty cattle sent to Stoke-on-Trent for slaughter, they made investigations and are appointing a senior meat inspector, who, in the Council's opinion, will be able to deal effectively with casualty cattle in accordance with the Regulations.

Oral Answers to Questions — HOUSES (PRICES AND RENTS)

Mr. James Griffiths: asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware of the growing public concern at the methods adopted to defeat the provisions of the Rent Restrictions Acts and at the excessive prices asked for houses offered for sale and the rentals charged for so-called furnished houses; and whether he will take immediate steps to protect the people against these forms of profiteering?

Mr. E. Brown: I have no reason to think that the protection afforded to tenants by the Rent Restrictions Acts is, in general, proving inadequate, and the reports which I receive regularly from local authorities show that they are using their powers under the Acts vigorously and with a large measure of success. If my hon. Friend will send me particulars of any cases where the Acts are being evaded, I will gladly have inquiries made. On the particular point of scantily furnished houses, I would refer him to Section 10 of the Act of 1923. With regard to houses offered for sale, I understand that in some reception areas there has been a rise in the price asked for houses for which vacant possession can be given, but I would remind my hon. Friend that requisitioning powers are available if these houses are required for various wartime purposes.

Mr. Griffiths: Do the powers of local authorities include powers to sue owners of houses who demand key money varying from £5 to £50 when they let a house?

Mr. Brown: I would like to give a considered answer to that Question, so perhaps the hon. Gentleman will put it on the Order Paper.

Mr. Griffiths: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that insurance companies are circulating owners of property and urging them to increase their insurance and in that way encouraging the rise in the price of houses for sale? Will he take steps to stop that?

Mr. Brown: That does not arise from the Question. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will put it on the Order Paper, so that I may give a considered answer.

Sir P. Harris: Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that there is a very urgent demand for accommodation and that landlords are taking advantage of technical faults in the Act to evade the real purpose of rent restriction?

Mr. Brown: Perhaps the right hon. Baronet will call my attention to the points he has in mind. As he knows, my Department and the local authorities are continuously active in this matter.

Oral Answers to Questions — CHILE AND AXIS POWERS (SEVERED RELATIONS)

Sir I. Albery (by Private Notice): asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any statement to make about the relations of Chile with the Axis Powers.

The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Eden): Yes, Sir. The Chilean Ambassador called upon me this morning in order to inform me that Chile had broken off relations with Germany, Italy and Japan. I expressed to the Ambassador the satisfaction of His Majesty's Government at this decision, and I am sure that the House will join me in welcoming this event. Perhaps I might add that His Majesty's Government look forward to the day when the whole South American Continent will have ceased to be in relations with our common enemy.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

Mr. Arthur Greenwood: May I ask the Leader of the House what will be the forthcoming Business?

Mr. Eden: The Business will be as follows:
First Sitting Day—Committee stage of the Supplementary Vote of Credit and of the Vote of Credit for War Expenditure, 1943; and Second Reading of the Minister of Town and Country Planning Bill, which the Government desire to pass into law as soon as possible.
Second Sitting Day—Report stage of the Votes of Credit; Committee and remaining stages of the Minister of Town and Country Planning Bill.
Third Sitting Day—We shall ask the House to pass a special Consolidated Fund Bill for the Votes of Credit through all its stages.
We hope that the Minister of Town and Country Planning Bill will be disposed of on the second Sitting Day, and, if so, there will be an opportunity on the third Sitting Day for a Debate on the Organisation and Control of the Civil Service arising out of the Sixteenth Report from the Select Committee on National Expenditure.
If there is time on the first or second Sitting Day we shall make further progress with the Workmen's Compensation Bill, the Police (Appeals) Bill, and the Crown Lands Bill.

Mr. Greenwood: May I put this point to the right hon. Gentleman? The Minister of Town and Country Planning Bill was only issued late last night, and few people have had any opportunity of considering it. I have glanced at it, and, as far as I can see, it is largely a machinery Bill. In that case a good deal will depend on the point of view of the House on the policy underlying the Bill itself. Although I should be the last person to interfere with or delay any Bill dealing with reconstruction, may I put it that to take the Second Reading on the first Sitting Day and complete all the stages on the following day is a little unfair to the House until it has been informed of the general background of policy which necessitated the Bill and has all the information which the House ought to be put in possession of before we can complete the remaining stages of the Bill on the second Sitting Day?

Mr. Eden: As the right hon. Gentleman himself quite rightly says, it is a


machinery Bill. It is the Bill that we need to enable the Minister to examine the position, settle the policy, and carry on with it. I do not think it need be so very difficult to dispose of it on consecutive days, but perhaps we can consider that a little further and decide how to handle the matter. It is essentially only a machinery Bill.

Mr. Greenwood: I hope the right hon. Gentleman will forgive me if I press the point. The fact that it is a machinery Bill does not dispose of my point, that the attitude of the House will be determined by the policy lying behind the machinery that is set up. I am not certain, for example, in my own mind whether this Ministry is desirable or not until I know what lies behind it, and it would put the House in a difficult position to force the Bill through all its stages on two consecutive days.

Mr. Eden: The reasons that led to the Bill being brought forward were explained at some length in the last reconstruction Debate, in response to a number of questions which the right hon. Gentleman asked. That is the fons et origo of the Bill, and this is the machinery to give effect to what my right hon. Friend then said. I should have hoped we could get it during the next series of Sitting Days, but I am quite willing to consider it, and perhaps it can be discussed through the usual channels.

Mr. Greenwood: Perhaps on the next Sitting Day a Question might be put about it. In the interval I should like the Leader of the House to consider the possibility of getting the Workmen's Compensation Bill on the second Sitting Day, as I understand that agreement has been reached, and, if it were found agreeable to the Government to postpone the remaining stages of the other Bill, perhaps the Leader of the House might consider an open Debate on the transfer of labour that day.

Mr. Eden: Of course, I will consider it, but the right hon. Gentleman must not take it as a pledge that I can do anything.

Mr. Tinker: May I ask when we are likely to have the Bill dealing with old age pensions, mentioned in the King's Speech, before the House?

Mr. Eden: I may be able to give some indication of the time table during the next series of Sittings. It will not be then, but I may be able to give some indication then when it will be.

Mr. Stokes: In view of the willingness expressed by the Minister of Production to make a report to the House on his recent visit to America and on Government policy with regard to tanks and tank engines, and in view of misleading and disingenuous statements made on the subject recently by the Minister of Defence, will the right hon. Gentleman afford the House an early opportunity of debate?

Mr. Eden: I accept none of the hon. Member's epithets, which are, of course, exclusively his own, but, as regards the subject matter, it may be that an opportunity will present itself for a statement by my right hon. Friend. We have a good deal of Business which we must get through, and we shall have to sit on more days if we are to get through it.

Captain Sir Ian Fraser: In view of the imminent publication of the Royal Warrant, will the Leader of the House tell us whether an early day can be fixed to discuss the Pensions Ministry?

Mr. Eden: I think I am to answer a Question about that on the next Sitting Day.

Mr. Clement Davies: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider finding an early day for consideration of the shipping position and the steps that are being taken to facilitate replacement and repairs?

Mr. Eden: I think the hon. and learned Member knows the difficulty of this. We are not anxious to multiply the number of Secret Sessions, and this is not a subject which, in the view of the Government, can be usefully debated in public.

SECRET SESSION

Notice taken, that Strangers were present.

Whereupon Mr. Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order No. 89, put the Question,
"That Strangers be ordered to withdraw."

Question agreed to.

Strangers withdrew accordingly.

[The remainder of the Sitting was in Secret Session.]